I'm saying they don't need a tank buff because they're fine as they are.

they do have the same base yield after the change.

and they all have 50m3 drone bays after the change.

Stay aligned? You're being silly. He'll go out of range of the asteroid he's mining within 5 minutes of mining, out of range of his Orca/secure container within 1 minute. Sorry, aligning might 'save' him but it kills his profitability to practically zero.

That sums up the thread.

Gankers whining that they have to put effort into finding profitable ganks.

Gankers whining that they have to make friends to gank tanked ships.

Gankers whining that not every ship in EVE is profitable to gank.

Gankers whining.

Here are some facts. All ships can be ganked. Some ships can be ganked profitably. Some ships cannot be ganked profitably. Mining ship rebalance changes none of this.

The root of the problem has, at last, been discovered. You think your forum whining, childish behavior and shitposting had an effect on forum moderation. It didn't. Because of this you think forum whining, childish behavior and shitposting will have an effect on Mining ship re-balance. It won't.

Glad we could clear that up.

And,



When you've been told by a CCP dev that you're wrong and you still belabor the point, regurgitating it over and over it makes both you and your argument sound stupid. Get it?

Right. And when CCP tallies the votes (aka subs,) who do you think has a bigger voice? The high-sec gankers? Or the high-sec miners? I think it's pretty obvious that CCP values the miners' concerns over the high-sec gankers' concerns.

The real question is: will the high-sec gankers unsub over the mining ship changes? Because, you know, this game isn't for everyone.

CCP can do just so much to diversify the ships. Game model is too simple and lacks of the hundreds of tangent factors that in RL make people buy products that are not min maxed in the 2-3 super important stats.

Also, there are "mining doctrines" too. If common belief is that max yield is THE MUST then they can sugar coat all they want, people will still fly untanked double MLU Hulks.

I don't expect to see equality in ships usage, nor ISK will play a factor since everybody can and will switch to an exhumer ASAP.

The current income ranking for shooting red crosses is something like

Wormholes > Incursions (highsec) > Pro ratting in a carrier/carrier assisted tengu(nullsec) > Pro level 4s in a pimped marauder (highsec) = Tengu ratting (nullsec) > Drake/belt ratting (nullsec) > Bad level 3-4s (highsec)

While the risk/effort is

Wormholes >= sov nullsec >>>>>>> level 4s and highsec incursions

FFS you just make a DEDICATED ganking alt. Only FP attack you when you are -10, not concord. Its not against the rules, or very difficult at all, to evade the faction cronies. Just concord.

Any miners making alts to call concord will be reported.

There is nothing wrong with an alt to call concord (unless CCP has decided that calling Concord is an exploit or something).

They just can't recycle it.



Hmmm, I have an empty alt spot...

I think it depends how you do it.

Whether you're just pulling them somewhere once (like, with your ganker, waiting the 15 minutes and then ganking) or continuously keeping them floating around your barge using a guy in an ibis.

Am I going to pop him before he pops the other guy? Because that would be the reason to do that defense.

....




I kick ANY miner using a jetcan meant to be taken up by an Orca.
Sure gonna risk an Orca to some clown flipping the can somehow, expecially when they go unload.

I had a guy doing this exactly the day before I experimented your Mackinaw fail fit on the field. A guy *with light speed* managed to warp in, flip and warp out so fast I noticed just by pure luck.

I truly doubt you have ever mined in anything beyond the starter frigate.

Arise, dead horse whipping thread, arise!

I totally disagree. The Hulk cannot be efficient if its fleet depenency is hardwired into 3rd party providing such efficiency.
Hulk should and has to rely on fleet because of limited cargo hold and thin hull already.

Try making Hulk efficient when mission mining, let's see how fast that Orca will get to give him the crystals at the 3rd pocket, 80km off the warp in point.

you made a comment that it mines better than the mack, i reminded you it mined better before the changes. you still haven't made a comment on why it's better in a fleet [which, it isn't as it has no bonuses for being in a fleet]

yeah... because feedback on changes is a bad thing, right?

What did the griefers/gankers say to the industiralists/miners?

HTFU!



It's about stinking time for a change.

HTFU gankers!

Personally, if a EHP buff is unavoidable, I'd rather they swapped the EHP of the Hulk with the Mackinaw.

A) Hulk is 'traditionally' the toughest, and with its new Ore bay, its going to require micromanagement, or a script.
That means these miners are kept at their posts, moving Ore, swapping crystals, whatever.

B) People are already sitting down and figuring out the best 'AFK ice mining' set ups for the Mackinaw, how to best exploit its huge EHP and cargobay.


I think the best way to go - is keep the Hulk pilots in their seats with small cargo bays...

and keep Mackinaw pilots in their seats with lower EHP. (Besides, how well armored is a huge box in space going to be anyway?)

Give Hulks the EHP, and let them mine in groups.
Keep the AFK Mack pilots nervous by them more gankable.

Finally, nerf the yield of the Skiff a bit. Highest EHP, lowest yield, not 'tied with Mackinaw'.

...
also, i dont think there are many pigs in Iceland, so CCP might not see pigs as the vile, dirty creatures that they are. they see them as salty and delicious, so calling somebody a pig ends up being not really that big of a deal.

Personally, I really have no problem with the Skiff, in concept.

But the Mackinaw (and Retriever) was overbuffed to the point where it overshadowed all others.
Its pretty clear that miners value the AFK-cargobay above all other assets.

Easiest solution to this mess?

SWITCH the Hulk and Mackinaw's EHP.

Hulk already requires miner attention - via its small, rapidly filled Ore Bay.

Mackinaw has huge cargobay - but make it more vulnerable to ganking.
Miners naturally want to AFK with it, yet the lower EHP puts them at risk to ganking, forcing them to keep an eye on things.

Some semblance of tension and balance is achieved.

REAL TIERICIDE:
Hulk - fastest miner, 2nd most EHP - balanced by pain in the ass Ore bay.
Mack - weakest EHP, maximum cargo - AFK-ability balanced by risk of ganking.
Skiff - highest EHP, less cargo, less yield - for mining when you know ganking is going on.

This way, there is no longer a 'slam dunk' decision, pushing everyone out of Hulks and into Macks.

I find it ironic how as part of their "teiricide" CCP took away the separate roles each exhumer filled and pretty much replaced it with a more or less tiered system.
Tank:
Skiff>Mackinaw>Hulk
Yield:
Hulk>Mackinaw>Skiff
Ore hold:
Mackinaw>Skiff>Hulk

You point out "rule number 1" for a miner. Problem is lots of miners don't want to "adapt" by mining slower rates than a hulk.
Thats their problem, not mine. I learned to mine in cruiser, and mined more BS's than I can count in a BS. Not to mention serveral freighters.

As far as your point on Crimewatch, Yes, they will have to adapt again if they want to continue with easy kills and easy profit. Is it becoming WoW in space, back to my other points in another thread, show up at the next event, and ask them yourself. This going back and forth is complete waste of time. Threads like this should be locked with the following:

"CCP DEV, please ask us at our next event" - Your wasting internet bits

What do you mean by "brought in line", exactly? The way I see it, the exhumers have already been balanced with all other T2(!) ships... bringing their tank down again would throw off that balance again... and all because of players barking that have little to nill understanding of mining.

I didn't see miners complain... nor did I see CCP admit they did go overboard with the buff... or did I miss something there?

I keep seeing people saying things like that..."nobody uses anything but the Mackinaw" yet for the most part I only see them in ice belts which is no different than it was pre patch. I am still seeing plenty of hulks, covetors, and Ive seen a ton of skiffs.

There is plenty of reason, I use a skiff because it lets me have 100k ehp, and 15k ore hold. It's a safe ship to mine in.

I'll bite, why is it important for mining ships to be suicide-gankable in high sec?

Where? I see the occasional complaint about mining but nowhere have I ever seen the ungodly amount of complaining from miners that you guys keep saying happened.

The few forum complainers don't speak for the entire playerbase of miners.

If we were all flying Skiffs, you'd just complain about getting that one nerfed though. You wont be happy with anything us miners do.

Safer in a Skiff, much less likely to be the target of a suicide gank while only giving up a tiny bit of yield/ore space.
I've seen lot's of Skiffs since the patch.
Mackinaw tanks enough to avoid a few destroyers looking for an easy gank if he is tanked, Mackinaw can still be brought down easily if he has no tank. So the stupid miners will still be easy targets.

- Risk vs. reward
- 1-2-3

Mack gets worst tank. Ok, that means it should have best yield. Now we get to important part. What it needs so that 1-2-3 would happen? Yes, ore bay from Skiff. Do you know where that would lead to? It's bloody obvious: one ship to rule them all.

If this has been brought up and discussed, then I apologize.

Since CCP granted the Covetor and Hulk with the best yield but poor space due to being fleet ships, why not grant a bonus to the Orca's and Rorqual's ore hold based upon the Industrial Command Ships and Capital Industrial Ships skills respectively?

Of course, I will mention that I do fly an Orca so I am a tad biased.

1-2-3?
You want everyone to fly one ship and one ship only.

I'm assuming moon goo. Something we have been fighting to get changed for a long time now.

I meant the part where you think miners print isk.

Because miners have 6 ships (barges/exhumers)
Barges should be the harder ones to fit cpu/pg wise, not exhumers...but you have hundreds of ships outside of the mining profession. Not everyone will use the extra cpu to fit tank but whats wrong with giving the 3 exhumers more cpu to give us more fitting options? It's not like we can pick a different race or line of ships to fit...we are stuck with 3 exhumers.

But overall hundreds of ships that are combat based....mining still only has the 3 barges and 3 exhumers.

This is true but it's because armor logis are useless.

If a miner is smart he would tank fit his Hulk and haul with his alt.